<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: With or Without Interest &#8211; Do You Know What You Paid</title>
	<atom:link href="http://financefreelancelife.com/2009/10/05/home-prices-and-interest/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://financefreelancelife.com/2009/10/05/home-prices-and-interest/</link>
	<description></description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 19 Mar 2010 11:02:05 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<xhtml:meta xmlns:xhtml="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" name="robots" content="noindex" />
	<item>
		<title>By: R.A.T</title>
		<link>http://financefreelancelife.com/2009/10/05/home-prices-and-interest/#comment-65119</link>
		<dc:creator>R.A.T</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Dec 2009 22:03:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://financefreelancelife.com/?p=1511#comment-65119</guid>
		<description>1) Mortgage interest deduction - which makes your effective interest rate something like Gross Rate * (1 - marginal tax rate).  This effectively means that the more you make the more of a discount you get when you purchase a house (because your tax rate is higher).

2) In the US since 1950 the average annual inflation adjusted rate of return has been 1-2% (you can get house price indexes and CPI from the BLS if you want to do the math yourself).  The number varries depending on when you stop the series: 2000, 2006, 2008

3) Inflation has run 3 to 4% over the same period.

4) Average mortgage interest over a similar period is about 7%

You can add 1 thru 4 together to see, as you pointed out, that in many cases the net effect is - break even or a little positive.

However, there are a few highly positive financial externalities from owning - 
a) Lower insurance rates. 
b) You can make infrastructure investments in an owned property that are impossible in a rental - i.e. heating and cooling system upgrades, energy/water efficient appliances. 
c) Your cost of housing does not go up as the CPI goes up - so the longer you stay put the better deal you get.

These are real, tangible financial benefits of owning. 

There are some slightly less tangible, but financial benefits as well:
i) modified risk profile - you now have an asset directly tied to the CPI.
ii) modified risk profile - your cost of housing is now 80% fixed
iii) modified risk profile - real estate is only loosely correlated to other assets
iv) forced savings - we like to assume we are rational when we make our financial plans, but for the stark majority of people, a forced savings plan is better


People like to assume that buying a house is a simple investment - and shudder at the complexity of CDOs, Options, Futures, Swaps, Etc.  But, the stark fact is that the economics that underly valuation of derivatives is MUCH simpler than the economics that underly house values.

House values are insanely complicated derivatives.  To get fundamental house prices you have to look at the intersection of wages, interest rates, tax policy, population density, mortgage structures/leveragability - and then you have to forecast all of those things forward and figure out the correct way to discount them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1) Mortgage interest deduction &#8211; which makes your effective interest rate something like Gross Rate * (1 &#8211; marginal tax rate).  This effectively means that the more you make the more of a discount you get when you purchase a house (because your tax rate is higher).</p>
<p>2) In the US since 1950 the average annual inflation adjusted rate of return has been 1-2% (you can get house price indexes and CPI from the BLS if you want to do the math yourself).  The number varries depending on when you stop the series: 2000, 2006, 2008</p>
<p>3) Inflation has run 3 to 4% over the same period.</p>
<p>4) Average mortgage interest over a similar period is about 7%</p>
<p>You can add 1 thru 4 together to see, as you pointed out, that in many cases the net effect is &#8211; break even or a little positive.</p>
<p>However, there are a few highly positive financial externalities from owning &#8211;<br />
a) Lower insurance rates.<br />
b) You can make infrastructure investments in an owned property that are impossible in a rental &#8211; i.e. heating and cooling system upgrades, energy/water efficient appliances.<br />
c) Your cost of housing does not go up as the CPI goes up &#8211; so the longer you stay put the better deal you get.</p>
<p>These are real, tangible financial benefits of owning. </p>
<p>There are some slightly less tangible, but financial benefits as well:<br />
i) modified risk profile &#8211; you now have an asset directly tied to the CPI.<br />
ii) modified risk profile &#8211; your cost of housing is now 80% fixed<br />
iii) modified risk profile &#8211; real estate is only loosely correlated to other assets<br />
iv) forced savings &#8211; we like to assume we are rational when we make our financial plans, but for the stark majority of people, a forced savings plan is better</p>
<p>People like to assume that buying a house is a simple investment &#8211; and shudder at the complexity of CDOs, Options, Futures, Swaps, Etc.  But, the stark fact is that the economics that underly valuation of derivatives is MUCH simpler than the economics that underly house values.</p>
<p>House values are insanely complicated derivatives.  To get fundamental house prices you have to look at the intersection of wages, interest rates, tax policy, population density, mortgage structures/leveragability &#8211; and then you have to forecast all of those things forward and figure out the correct way to discount them.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://financefreelancelife.com/2009/10/05/home-prices-and-interest/#comment-56164</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Oct 2009 18:43:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://financefreelancelife.com/?p=1511#comment-56164</guid>
		<description>Found your blog via FrugalDad today.

You&#039;re forgetting another important aspect of this calculation.  Most people remember to factor interest in (counts against you) but few remember to factor inflation in (helps you).

I wrote about this extensively recently following a post on Get Rich Slowly :http://www.getrichslowly.org/blog/2009/09/30/pros-and-cons-30-year-mortgage-vs-15-year-mortgage/

Here is an excerpt from the comment I left there: 

But, we always forget to take inflation and Net Present Value of money into account when making these calculations. (Same applies to prepaying your mortgage)

Remember, a dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow. Assuming inflation is 2% and you have a 5% rate on your mortgage, you’re carrying cost of the debt is really only 3% as you are using tomorrows dollars to pay off your obligation so it is cheaper for you.

Quick example:
$1800 / month payment
2% Inflation

Value in today’s $ of payment 1: $1800
Value in today’s $ of payment in year 30: $993

By spreading the payments out into the future you are actually saving yourself some money.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Found your blog via FrugalDad today.</p>
<p>You&#8217;re forgetting another important aspect of this calculation.  Most people remember to factor interest in (counts against you) but few remember to factor inflation in (helps you).</p>
<p>I wrote about this extensively recently following a post on Get Rich Slowly :http://www.getrichslowly.org/blog/2009/09/30/pros-and-cons-30-year-mortgage-vs-15-year-mortgage/</p>
<p>Here is an excerpt from the comment I left there: </p>
<p>But, we always forget to take inflation and Net Present Value of money into account when making these calculations. (Same applies to prepaying your mortgage)</p>
<p>Remember, a dollar today is worth more than a dollar tomorrow. Assuming inflation is 2% and you have a 5% rate on your mortgage, you’re carrying cost of the debt is really only 3% as you are using tomorrows dollars to pay off your obligation so it is cheaper for you.</p>
<p>Quick example:<br />
$1800 / month payment<br />
2% Inflation</p>
<p>Value in today’s $ of payment 1: $1800<br />
Value in today’s $ of payment in year 30: $993</p>
<p>By spreading the payments out into the future you are actually saving yourself some money.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: mrsmicah</title>
		<link>http://financefreelancelife.com/2009/10/05/home-prices-and-interest/#comment-56068</link>
		<dc:creator>mrsmicah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Oct 2009 14:08:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://financefreelancelife.com/?p=1511#comment-56068</guid>
		<description>Well, I wasn&#039;t intending to compare renting and mortgage in the post at all. I only brought it up when I mentioned that I&#039;m currently in an apartment. I&#039;m not opposed to buying homes when people stay in an area, only asking them not to think of them as investments or to do the math when thinking of them in those terms.

So, I&#039;m not really sure what your first comment was about after all because it seems that we agree for the most part. Math is important, renting is good when you can&#039;t afford to buy, don&#039;t need to buy, short-term, and ownership is probably better if you&#039;re going to be somewhere in the long-term. But it&#039;s important &lt;em&gt;not to think of it as something you plan to profit from&lt;/em&gt;, just as a place to live and way to save money to apply to future living arrangements.

I wasn&#039;t comparing it to renting but to &lt;strong&gt;investments&lt;/strong&gt; (which is one way a lot of people talk about it)--in which barely breaking even or having ANY profit isn&#039;t really the goal.

I&#039;m glad that&#039;s all you have to say because I&#039;m really confused about what you were trying to disagree with in my post. ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I wasn&#8217;t intending to compare renting and mortgage in the post at all. I only brought it up when I mentioned that I&#8217;m currently in an apartment. I&#8217;m not opposed to buying homes when people stay in an area, only asking them not to think of them as investments or to do the math when thinking of them in those terms.</p>
<p>So, I&#8217;m not really sure what your first comment was about after all because it seems that we agree for the most part. Math is important, renting is good when you can&#8217;t afford to buy, don&#8217;t need to buy, short-term, and ownership is probably better if you&#8217;re going to be somewhere in the long-term. But it&#8217;s important <em>not to think of it as something you plan to profit from</em>, just as a place to live and way to save money to apply to future living arrangements.</p>
<p>I wasn&#8217;t comparing it to renting but to <strong>investments</strong> (which is one way a lot of people talk about it)&#8211;in which barely breaking even or having ANY profit isn&#8217;t really the goal.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m glad that&#8217;s all you have to say because I&#8217;m really confused about what you were trying to disagree with in my post. <img src='http://financefreelancelife.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Wil</title>
		<link>http://financefreelancelife.com/2009/10/05/home-prices-and-interest/#comment-56066</link>
		<dc:creator>Wil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Oct 2009 13:36:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://financefreelancelife.com/?p=1511#comment-56066</guid>
		<description>I did assume that you were talking about housing and comparable living accommodations in the same area.  Obviously, if you “only need a 1-bedroom right now” you can probably rent that for less than a payment on a 4-bedroom ranch on a ¼ acre lot.  

You may be able to rent for less that the payment + taxes + upkeep that I describe in some areas.  Local economics, housing availability and other factors create some strange disparities, but my point was that situation is really not typical.  There are some cases where the landlord does take an economic hit to keep an especially good renter.   I have had one renter for more than 20 years.  He has paid for the house TWICE in that timeframe, plus all the taxes and upkeep.  Obviously, I want to keep him.

Certainly everyone should do the math and take advantage of unique situations in their area.  I just felt like you were describing an atypical situation.  For me, debt for a home is the ONLY acceptable (routine) debt.  I don’t think that anyone should look at their house just as an investment, nor should they buy a lot more house than they need.    

All I have to say!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I did assume that you were talking about housing and comparable living accommodations in the same area.  Obviously, if you “only need a 1-bedroom right now” you can probably rent that for less than a payment on a 4-bedroom ranch on a ¼ acre lot.  </p>
<p>You may be able to rent for less that the payment + taxes + upkeep that I describe in some areas.  Local economics, housing availability and other factors create some strange disparities, but my point was that situation is really not typical.  There are some cases where the landlord does take an economic hit to keep an especially good renter.   I have had one renter for more than 20 years.  He has paid for the house TWICE in that timeframe, plus all the taxes and upkeep.  Obviously, I want to keep him.</p>
<p>Certainly everyone should do the math and take advantage of unique situations in their area.  I just felt like you were describing an atypical situation.  For me, debt for a home is the ONLY acceptable (routine) debt.  I don’t think that anyone should look at their house just as an investment, nor should they buy a lot more house than they need.    </p>
<p>All I have to say!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: mrsmicah</title>
		<link>http://financefreelancelife.com/2009/10/05/home-prices-and-interest/#comment-56060</link>
		<dc:creator>mrsmicah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Oct 2009 12:53:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://financefreelancelife.com/?p=1511#comment-56060</guid>
		<description>I think you&#039;ve made a poor assumption, Wil, concerning whether or not renting is cheaper than a mortgage. For one thing, you assume that I&#039;m talking about houses. There are many cases where it&#039;s cheaper or about the same to buy the house, but there are also plenty of times that the price is actually lower than mortgage et. all. Renting a paid-off house, for example. Renting half a house or an apartment (sometimes one doesn&#039;t need a whole house, heck I only need a 1-bedroom right now).

If we continue renting small apartments instead of buying a house, odds are good (depending on the area and the prices) that we&#039;ll end up with a lot of extra money instead of equity.

I didn&#039;t write this to say that renting is always better, as you seem to be assuming. I&#039;m just asking people to consider everything they&#039;re spending, especially on purchases where interest can nearly double the price of something.

All or nothing assumptions like yours are exactly what I&#039;m trying to steer people away from. We&#039;re conditioned to make those assumptions instead of doing the math on our particular situations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you&#8217;ve made a poor assumption, Wil, concerning whether or not renting is cheaper than a mortgage. For one thing, you assume that I&#8217;m talking about houses. There are many cases where it&#8217;s cheaper or about the same to buy the house, but there are also plenty of times that the price is actually lower than mortgage et. all. Renting a paid-off house, for example. Renting half a house or an apartment (sometimes one doesn&#8217;t need a whole house, heck I only need a 1-bedroom right now).</p>
<p>If we continue renting small apartments instead of buying a house, odds are good (depending on the area and the prices) that we&#8217;ll end up with a lot of extra money instead of equity.</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t write this to say that renting is always better, as you seem to be assuming. I&#8217;m just asking people to consider everything they&#8217;re spending, especially on purchases where interest can nearly double the price of something.</p>
<p>All or nothing assumptions like yours are exactly what I&#8217;m trying to steer people away from. We&#8217;re conditioned to make those assumptions instead of doing the math on our particular situations.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Wil</title>
		<link>http://financefreelancelife.com/2009/10/05/home-prices-and-interest/#comment-56059</link>
		<dc:creator>Wil</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Oct 2009 12:38:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://financefreelancelife.com/?p=1511#comment-56059</guid>
		<description>Sorry, but I consider this upside down thinking.  If you buy a house and live in it for 15 years sell it take away ANYTHING, you are ahead of renting, since you take NOTHING away from 15 years of rent.  If you rented the same house for 15 years, the rent would probably be more than the payment since the landlord would account for property taxes, routine maintenance, and other fees. Additionally, the example didn&#039;t mention the income tax implications of mortgage interest paid.

Renting does make sense to me if you are living in an area for a short period of time, don&#039;t have an adequate down payment or have credit issues, but to me, that&#039;s about it..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, but I consider this upside down thinking.  If you buy a house and live in it for 15 years sell it take away ANYTHING, you are ahead of renting, since you take NOTHING away from 15 years of rent.  If you rented the same house for 15 years, the rent would probably be more than the payment since the landlord would account for property taxes, routine maintenance, and other fees. Additionally, the example didn&#8217;t mention the income tax implications of mortgage interest paid.</p>
<p>Renting does make sense to me if you are living in an area for a short period of time, don&#8217;t have an adequate down payment or have credit issues, but to me, that&#8217;s about it..</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Weekly Roundup &#8211; Great Eight Edition &#124; Frugal Dad</title>
		<link>http://financefreelancelife.com/2009/10/05/home-prices-and-interest/#comment-56054</link>
		<dc:creator>Weekly Roundup &#8211; Great Eight Edition &#124; Frugal Dad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Oct 2009 10:02:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://financefreelancelife.com/?p=1511#comment-56054</guid>
		<description>[...] With or Without Interest – Do You Know What You Paid. A great reminder to always figure the interest when calculating the total cost of something financed. We tend to forget about that when quoting costs. (@Mrs Micah) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] With or Without Interest – Do You Know What You Paid. A great reminder to always figure the interest when calculating the total cost of something financed. We tend to forget about that when quoting costs. (@Mrs Micah) [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Simplelivin'</title>
		<link>http://financefreelancelife.com/2009/10/05/home-prices-and-interest/#comment-55925</link>
		<dc:creator>Simplelivin'</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Oct 2009 13:32:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://financefreelancelife.com/?p=1511#comment-55925</guid>
		<description>Great post! I actually linked it in my post for today. Most people (myself included) forget about the interest part. Not to mention inflation over time, and the interest that could have been EARNED if they invested it.
.-= Simplelivin&#039;&#180;s last blog ..&lt;a href=&quot;http://simplelivingdiva.blogspot.com/2009/10/oct-5th-spending.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Oct. 5th Spending&lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post! I actually linked it in my post for today. Most people (myself included) forget about the interest part. Not to mention inflation over time, and the interest that could have been EARNED if they invested it.<br />
<span class="cluv"> Simplelivin&#8217;&#180;s last blog ..<a href="http://simplelivingdiva.blogspot.com/2009/10/oct-5th-spending.html" rel="nofollow">Oct. 5th Spending</a> <span class="heart_tip_box"><img class="heart_tip" alt="My ComLuv Profile" border="0" width="16" height="14" src="http://financefreelancelife.com/wp-content/plugins/commentluv/images/littleheart.gif"/></span></span></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Sense to Save &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Preparing for a trip &#8212; and link love</title>
		<link>http://financefreelancelife.com/2009/10/05/home-prices-and-interest/#comment-55877</link>
		<dc:creator>Sense to Save &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Preparing for a trip &#8212; and link love</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 22:25:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://financefreelancelife.com/?p=1511#comment-55877</guid>
		<description>[...] has a great post pointing out that yes, while your house might have sold for a more than you paid, you do need to factor in the interest paid on your loan when you consider your net gain. Chips away at the profits a bit, doesn&#8217;t it? Toss in [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] has a great post pointing out that yes, while your house might have sold for a more than you paid, you do need to factor in the interest paid on your loan when you consider your net gain. Chips away at the profits a bit, doesn&#8217;t it? Toss in [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Kacie</title>
		<link>http://financefreelancelife.com/2009/10/05/home-prices-and-interest/#comment-55873</link>
		<dc:creator>Kacie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Oct 2009 20:11:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://financefreelancelife.com/?p=1511#comment-55873</guid>
		<description>Good job doing the math! I think a 6% interest rate might be a bit high right now (I&#039;ve seen some 15-year mortgages going for under 5%), but STILL, you&#039;re probably barely breaking even.

Property taxes add up to a lot of money you&#039;ll never see again. And homeowners insurance. And repairs and general upkeep.
.-= Kacie&#180;s last blog ..&lt;a href=&quot;http://sensetosave.com/2009/10/01/october-outlook/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;October outlook&lt;/a&gt; =-.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good job doing the math! I think a 6% interest rate might be a bit high right now (I&#8217;ve seen some 15-year mortgages going for under 5%), but STILL, you&#8217;re probably barely breaking even.</p>
<p>Property taxes add up to a lot of money you&#8217;ll never see again. And homeowners insurance. And repairs and general upkeep.<br />
<span class="cluv"> Kacie&#180;s last blog ..<a href="http://sensetosave.com/2009/10/01/october-outlook/" rel="nofollow">October outlook</a> <span class="heart_tip_box"><img class="heart_tip" alt="My ComLuv Profile" border="0" width="16" height="14" src="http://financefreelancelife.com/wp-content/plugins/commentluv/images/littleheart.gif"/></span></span></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

<!-- Dynamic Page Served (once) in 0.500 seconds -->
