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	<title>Comments on: Mrs. Micah&#8211;future stay-at-home mom?</title>
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		<title>By: Mrs. Micah: Finance and Life / My philosophy of food</title>
		<link>http://financefreelancelife.com/2007/10/22/mrs-micah-future-stay-at-home-mom/#comment-1120</link>
		<dc:creator>Mrs. Micah: Finance and Life / My philosophy of food</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Nov 2007 12:19:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://financefreelancelife.com/?p=131#comment-1120</guid>
		<description>[...] Today I realized that my audience is much too intelligent to assume that only housewives write about groceries or that being a housewife is a bad thing to be (or that housewives aren&#8217;t as intelligent as the rest of us, etc, etc). (see my post about staying home.) [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Today I realized that my audience is much too intelligent to assume that only housewives write about groceries or that being a housewife is a bad thing to be (or that housewives aren&#8217;t as intelligent as the rest of us, etc, etc). (see my post about staying home.) [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Stevens</title>
		<link>http://financefreelancelife.com/2007/10/22/mrs-micah-future-stay-at-home-mom/#comment-447</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Stevens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Oct 2007 19:38:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://financefreelancelife.com/?p=131#comment-447</guid>
		<description>The socialization argument has always struck me as a poor argument against home-schooling.  The socialization found in schools is a phony socialization.  At what other time in your life will you be surrounded by people who are almost exactly the same age as you are?  Indeed, one of the reasons why I favor home-schooling over traditional schooling is to avoid that socialization.  I think schooling produces children who have largely socialized each other and I believe the process of socialization is too important to leave up to children.

A much stronger argument against is that having only one teacher can narrow a child&#039;s educational breadth.  There are, I am sure, many home-schoolers who inadvertently pass on their disdain for a particular subject to their children.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The socialization argument has always struck me as a poor argument against home-schooling.  The socialization found in schools is a phony socialization.  At what other time in your life will you be surrounded by people who are almost exactly the same age as you are?  Indeed, one of the reasons why I favor home-schooling over traditional schooling is to avoid that socialization.  I think schooling produces children who have largely socialized each other and I believe the process of socialization is too important to leave up to children.</p>
<p>A much stronger argument against is that having only one teacher can narrow a child&#8217;s educational breadth.  There are, I am sure, many home-schoolers who inadvertently pass on their disdain for a particular subject to their children.</p>
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		<title>By: mbhunter</title>
		<link>http://financefreelancelife.com/2007/10/22/mrs-micah-future-stay-at-home-mom/#comment-446</link>
		<dc:creator>mbhunter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Oct 2007 14:19:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://financefreelancelife.com/?p=131#comment-446</guid>
		<description>We&#039;re tending toward wanting to home-school our daughter (who&#039;s now 2 1/2).  A good fraction of the church we go to home-schools their children.

An interesting story:  One of the daughters of a home-schooled family was getting treated at the orthodontist, and the assistane asked if she was home schooled.  She said, &quot;Yes, but how did you know?&quot;  The assistant replied, &quot;Because you talk to me.&quot;  As long as the children aren&#039;t studying all the time, and do get to accompany the parents places, especially when they go talking with their friends, homeschooled children can be a lot more socially adept than they&#039;re often given credit for.  (Plus, they&#039;re not being told to sit down and shut up all the time.) ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We&#8217;re tending toward wanting to home-school our daughter (who&#8217;s now 2 1/2).  A good fraction of the church we go to home-schools their children.</p>
<p>An interesting story:  One of the daughters of a home-schooled family was getting treated at the orthodontist, and the assistane asked if she was home schooled.  She said, &#8220;Yes, but how did you know?&#8221;  The assistant replied, &#8220;Because you talk to me.&#8221;  As long as the children aren&#8217;t studying all the time, and do get to accompany the parents places, especially when they go talking with their friends, homeschooled children can be a lot more socially adept than they&#8217;re often given credit for.  (Plus, they&#8217;re not being told to sit down and shut up all the time.) <img src='http://financefreelancelife.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Stevens</title>
		<link>http://financefreelancelife.com/2007/10/22/mrs-micah-future-stay-at-home-mom/#comment-445</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Stevens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Oct 2007 00:51:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://financefreelancelife.com/?p=131#comment-445</guid>
		<description>Spells, quite all right.  It was an easy misunderstanding to make and you were &quot;gently&quot; chiding me anyway.  I can easily see how you could have gotten that impression from what I wrote.  And I can easily see myself saying something like &quot;Women who don&#039;t want to be with their children shouldn&#039;t have them.&quot;  However, I would also write &quot;Men who don&#039;t want to be with their children shouldn&#039;t have them.&quot;  Ideally, if you are a couple having children, the one who gets to stay home with them ought to be considered (by both partners) to be the luckier one.

Thanks for the info on your friend.  It&#039;s too late for me to go into teaching in any event.  I have a job I enjoy very much now.  I&#039;m not likely to give it up for a job that I *think* I would enjoy more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Spells, quite all right.  It was an easy misunderstanding to make and you were &#8220;gently&#8221; chiding me anyway.  I can easily see how you could have gotten that impression from what I wrote.  And I can easily see myself saying something like &#8220;Women who don&#8217;t want to be with their children shouldn&#8217;t have them.&#8221;  However, I would also write &#8220;Men who don&#8217;t want to be with their children shouldn&#8217;t have them.&#8221;  Ideally, if you are a couple having children, the one who gets to stay home with them ought to be considered (by both partners) to be the luckier one.</p>
<p>Thanks for the info on your friend.  It&#8217;s too late for me to go into teaching in any event.  I have a job I enjoy very much now.  I&#8217;m not likely to give it up for a job that I *think* I would enjoy more.</p>
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		<title>By: Spells</title>
		<link>http://financefreelancelife.com/2007/10/22/mrs-micah-future-stay-at-home-mom/#comment-444</link>
		<dc:creator>Spells</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Oct 2007 00:37:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://financefreelancelife.com/?p=131#comment-444</guid>
		<description>Andrew, thanks for responding.  I am sure I sometimes see slights where there aren&#039;t any, and I should not have put thoughts into your post that weren&#039;t there.

As for the philosophy teacher, he teaches at the public high school in our Tennessee town.  It&#039;s a &quot;regular&quot; high school, not a magnet school.  They also have a sociology teacher, which, while we&#039;re fantasizing, would be my dream job.  Not a lot of turnover there, though-- once somebody snags a dream job, they don&#039;t leave!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew, thanks for responding.  I am sure I sometimes see slights where there aren&#8217;t any, and I should not have put thoughts into your post that weren&#8217;t there.</p>
<p>As for the philosophy teacher, he teaches at the public high school in our Tennessee town.  It&#8217;s a &#8220;regular&#8221; high school, not a magnet school.  They also have a sociology teacher, which, while we&#8217;re fantasizing, would be my dream job.  Not a lot of turnover there, though&#8211; once somebody snags a dream job, they don&#8217;t leave!</p>
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		<title>By: Mr. Micah</title>
		<link>http://financefreelancelife.com/2007/10/22/mrs-micah-future-stay-at-home-mom/#comment-443</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr. Micah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Oct 2007 21:22:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://financefreelancelife.com/?p=131#comment-443</guid>
		<description>It seems to me that Meg simply hasn&#039;t ever met a sewer for whom sewing is a creative process on par with the activities of other artists. I couldn&#039;t have thought of sewing in these terms either, before I met Mrs. Micah (she wasn&#039;t called that then, though). But for her it is a creative outlet, an artisic venture. And there is nothing more Godlike than that, it seems to me.

That understood, I think that being creative and learning for the rest of one&#039;s life sounds enormously fulfilling. And worthwhile, I might add. I&#039;d like to work on being Godlike for the rest of my life!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It seems to me that Meg simply hasn&#8217;t ever met a sewer for whom sewing is a creative process on par with the activities of other artists. I couldn&#8217;t have thought of sewing in these terms either, before I met Mrs. Micah (she wasn&#8217;t called that then, though). But for her it is a creative outlet, an artisic venture. And there is nothing more Godlike than that, it seems to me.</p>
<p>That understood, I think that being creative and learning for the rest of one&#8217;s life sounds enormously fulfilling. And worthwhile, I might add. I&#8217;d like to work on being Godlike for the rest of my life!!!</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Stevens</title>
		<link>http://financefreelancelife.com/2007/10/22/mrs-micah-future-stay-at-home-mom/#comment-442</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Stevens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Oct 2007 21:04:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://financefreelancelife.com/?p=131#comment-442</guid>
		<description>Without getting into what&#039;s rewarding and not rewarding (which will depend on the individual), Meg is incorrect on a few factual points.  1) The divorce rate is not, and never has been over 50%, nevertheless &quot;well over&quot; as Meg asserts.  It&#039;s much closer to 40%, and that&#039;s for the people who have had the most divorces (people in their late 50s now).  At the peak of the divorce rate (1980), there were half as many divorces that year as there were marriages, but there is no cohort of age-defined people who have had 50% of their marriages fail.  2)  Once there are children, two-thirds of all divorces are initiated by women.  We won&#039;t get into whose fault the divorce might have been (it could easily be the man&#039;s fault, but still initiated by the woman), but the specter of &quot;being left&quot; is a much smaller risk than is normally assumed.  3) There certainly are risks if the husband dies or is disabled.  This is why I am extremely well-insured.  Were I to die, my wife would face many, many grave and serious problems, but money isn&#039;t one of them.  As for unemployment, double income couples who have expenses which are greater than either of the incomes face much greater risks in this regard than single-earner couples.  Single-earner couples have a safety valve; the non-earner can reenter the work force.  (This is mostly just an argument for living on only one income, regardless of how many incomes you have.)

Actually, the largest risk is exactly what happened to my mother.  When my father was afflicted by schizophrenia, she was left in a terrible bind.  He didn&#039;t die so she didn&#039;t get Social Security or life insurance and there was no insurance which covered disability caused by mental illness and it&#039;s very difficult to get such insurance today.  We were quite poor while I was growing up because of this, but, as long as you&#039;ve got your health and don&#039;t live in a crime-infested neighborhood, poverty in America is no hardship.  It&#039;s more irritating than anything else.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Without getting into what&#8217;s rewarding and not rewarding (which will depend on the individual), Meg is incorrect on a few factual points.  1) The divorce rate is not, and never has been over 50%, nevertheless &#8220;well over&#8221; as Meg asserts.  It&#8217;s much closer to 40%, and that&#8217;s for the people who have had the most divorces (people in their late 50s now).  At the peak of the divorce rate (1980), there were half as many divorces that year as there were marriages, but there is no cohort of age-defined people who have had 50% of their marriages fail.  2)  Once there are children, two-thirds of all divorces are initiated by women.  We won&#8217;t get into whose fault the divorce might have been (it could easily be the man&#8217;s fault, but still initiated by the woman), but the specter of &#8220;being left&#8221; is a much smaller risk than is normally assumed.  3) There certainly are risks if the husband dies or is disabled.  This is why I am extremely well-insured.  Were I to die, my wife would face many, many grave and serious problems, but money isn&#8217;t one of them.  As for unemployment, double income couples who have expenses which are greater than either of the incomes face much greater risks in this regard than single-earner couples.  Single-earner couples have a safety valve; the non-earner can reenter the work force.  (This is mostly just an argument for living on only one income, regardless of how many incomes you have.)</p>
<p>Actually, the largest risk is exactly what happened to my mother.  When my father was afflicted by schizophrenia, she was left in a terrible bind.  He didn&#8217;t die so she didn&#8217;t get Social Security or life insurance and there was no insurance which covered disability caused by mental illness and it&#8217;s very difficult to get such insurance today.  We were quite poor while I was growing up because of this, but, as long as you&#8217;ve got your health and don&#8217;t live in a crime-infested neighborhood, poverty in America is no hardship.  It&#8217;s more irritating than anything else.</p>
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		<title>By: Spells</title>
		<link>http://financefreelancelife.com/2007/10/22/mrs-micah-future-stay-at-home-mom/#comment-441</link>
		<dc:creator>Spells</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Oct 2007 19:46:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://financefreelancelife.com/?p=131#comment-441</guid>
		<description>Andrew, our friend teaches philosophy at a public high school in Tennessee.  It&#039;s &quot;regular&quot; high school, not a magnet school, too.  That school also has a sociology teacher, and I always thought that would be a &quot;dream&quot; job for me.

Thanks for your response, too -- I probably was being touchy, as I said.  I live in a town with many, many stay-at-home moms who act &quot;surprised&quot; when they see me rather than my husband at a school event or whatever. So, I probably have grown, unjustly, to see slights
where there are none.

Mrs. Micah, I agree with you that some women are ridiculed for staying home with kids (and as Andrew said, that men probably are treated the same, but sometimes peopel hide it better).  I had a lawyer friend who clerked for a federal court of appeals, and then came home to raise her daughter.  The lawyers at her husband&#039;s firm dismissed her completely at social functions - would turn away from her.  At one party, they were talknig about this brilliant legal opinion that the court of appeals had just released and said to my friend &quot;oh, I&#039;m sure this must be boring to you.&quot;  And my friend said &quot;No, it&#039;s not.  I actually wrote that opinion when I clerked for that court!&quot;  It&#039;s like they assume you lose 20 IQ points, coming home.

But, Mrs. Micah, I think you are being harsh, and categorically rejecting all families where both parents work.  There are many, many reasons why both parents may work, and we cannot know what goes on in their homes and lives.  It is not fair to judge from the outside whether their choices are good, and surely it cannot be universally true that &quot;nobody should even have kids&quot; if they have good reason to worry about financial stability.

Kids can be seriously screwed up in a parent-at-home household or in a both-parents-work-outside household.  Neither path is failsafe, but both should be safe from categorical judgments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew, our friend teaches philosophy at a public high school in Tennessee.  It&#8217;s &#8220;regular&#8221; high school, not a magnet school, too.  That school also has a sociology teacher, and I always thought that would be a &#8220;dream&#8221; job for me.</p>
<p>Thanks for your response, too &#8212; I probably was being touchy, as I said.  I live in a town with many, many stay-at-home moms who act &#8220;surprised&#8221; when they see me rather than my husband at a school event or whatever. So, I probably have grown, unjustly, to see slights<br />
where there are none.</p>
<p>Mrs. Micah, I agree with you that some women are ridiculed for staying home with kids (and as Andrew said, that men probably are treated the same, but sometimes peopel hide it better).  I had a lawyer friend who clerked for a federal court of appeals, and then came home to raise her daughter.  The lawyers at her husband&#8217;s firm dismissed her completely at social functions &#8211; would turn away from her.  At one party, they were talknig about this brilliant legal opinion that the court of appeals had just released and said to my friend &#8220;oh, I&#8217;m sure this must be boring to you.&#8221;  And my friend said &#8220;No, it&#8217;s not.  I actually wrote that opinion when I clerked for that court!&#8221;  It&#8217;s like they assume you lose 20 IQ points, coming home.</p>
<p>But, Mrs. Micah, I think you are being harsh, and categorically rejecting all families where both parents work.  There are many, many reasons why both parents may work, and we cannot know what goes on in their homes and lives.  It is not fair to judge from the outside whether their choices are good, and surely it cannot be universally true that &#8220;nobody should even have kids&#8221; if they have good reason to worry about financial stability.</p>
<p>Kids can be seriously screwed up in a parent-at-home household or in a both-parents-work-outside household.  Neither path is failsafe, but both should be safe from categorical judgments.</p>
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		<title>By: Mrs. Micah</title>
		<link>http://financefreelancelife.com/2007/10/22/mrs-micah-future-stay-at-home-mom/#comment-426</link>
		<dc:creator>Mrs. Micah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Oct 2007 18:43:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://financefreelancelife.com/?p=131#comment-426</guid>
		<description>Well, currently I&#039;m not in a meaningful career. I&#039;m working to support my husband as he goes through a PhD program. I&#039;m still trying to figure out what a meaningful career would even be for me. At heart I&#039;m a writer and a sewer.

When I say sewing, I&#039;m talking about a business--making curtains, tailoring, custom clothes--to whatever extent my free time can support it. This is something I&#039;ve had a passion for for over 10 years. I&#039;ve made money doing it, I&#039;ve done it as gifts and favors, I&#039;ve made wedding dresses, historical costumes, prom dresses, pants, blouses, quilts, and more. Plus I love doing it.

Sewing, which you dismiss, is a much more meaningful career for me than working in some corporation like I&#039;m doing now.

My husband is also passionate about teaching philosophy. He doesn&#039;t see it as a job, but as fulfilling his telos. If he stops liking it or if it can&#039;t support us then we&#039;ll find a way. But if he&#039;s making enough that we can live on and loves his job...

The &quot;precious children&quot; will do a lot better, I expect, having one parent actually raising them than abandoning them to be raised by other people (for single parents, of course, it&#039;s a necessity). Even if that means living a bit below cultural standards. Plus most mothers&#039; salaries go primarily towards childcare anyway.

Really, nobody should even have kids with the worldview you describe. They&#039;ll have to spend the whole time their child is growing up working just in case they get divorced or someone dies. The kids will be raised by random people who are hired to do it. I had friends who saw their parents for maybe 2 hours/day. They were much closer to the people who did afterschool care. I ask why have kids then? As pets? Maybe people have reasons, but I have to wonder about some of them.

Nor was I refusing to ever work for a living. Well, I expect to &quot;work&quot; plenty when they&#039;re young as well.

Maybe you&#039;re meaning to be helpful. But I&#039;ve seen a lot of women (and men, too, if they make that choice) ridiculed for staying at home, told they&#039;re not being practical, etc.

I also feel insulted and patronized at the image that&#039;s implied of me staying home and sipping tea, working crosstitch samplers, and reading novels while my husband slaves away at work and feels enormously pressured to keep me on that pedestal. I don&#039;t know why I even feel the need to defend myself, but perhaps because lots of women feel judged if they stay home or worry that they have to work even though they have the financial stability to enrich their family by staying with the kids. And, as I&#039;ve said, if the relationship is more suited to the man staying home, great!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, currently I&#8217;m not in a meaningful career. I&#8217;m working to support my husband as he goes through a PhD program. I&#8217;m still trying to figure out what a meaningful career would even be for me. At heart I&#8217;m a writer and a sewer.</p>
<p>When I say sewing, I&#8217;m talking about a business&#8211;making curtains, tailoring, custom clothes&#8211;to whatever extent my free time can support it. This is something I&#8217;ve had a passion for for over 10 years. I&#8217;ve made money doing it, I&#8217;ve done it as gifts and favors, I&#8217;ve made wedding dresses, historical costumes, prom dresses, pants, blouses, quilts, and more. Plus I love doing it.</p>
<p>Sewing, which you dismiss, is a much more meaningful career for me than working in some corporation like I&#8217;m doing now.</p>
<p>My husband is also passionate about teaching philosophy. He doesn&#8217;t see it as a job, but as fulfilling his telos. If he stops liking it or if it can&#8217;t support us then we&#8217;ll find a way. But if he&#8217;s making enough that we can live on and loves his job&#8230;</p>
<p>The &#8220;precious children&#8221; will do a lot better, I expect, having one parent actually raising them than abandoning them to be raised by other people (for single parents, of course, it&#8217;s a necessity). Even if that means living a bit below cultural standards. Plus most mothers&#8217; salaries go primarily towards childcare anyway.</p>
<p>Really, nobody should even have kids with the worldview you describe. They&#8217;ll have to spend the whole time their child is growing up working just in case they get divorced or someone dies. The kids will be raised by random people who are hired to do it. I had friends who saw their parents for maybe 2 hours/day. They were much closer to the people who did afterschool care. I ask why have kids then? As pets? Maybe people have reasons, but I have to wonder about some of them.</p>
<p>Nor was I refusing to ever work for a living. Well, I expect to &#8220;work&#8221; plenty when they&#8217;re young as well.</p>
<p>Maybe you&#8217;re meaning to be helpful. But I&#8217;ve seen a lot of women (and men, too, if they make that choice) ridiculed for staying at home, told they&#8217;re not being practical, etc.</p>
<p>I also feel insulted and patronized at the image that&#8217;s implied of me staying home and sipping tea, working crosstitch samplers, and reading novels while my husband slaves away at work and feels enormously pressured to keep me on that pedestal. I don&#8217;t know why I even feel the need to defend myself, but perhaps because lots of women feel judged if they stay home or worry that they have to work even though they have the financial stability to enrich their family by staying with the kids. And, as I&#8217;ve said, if the relationship is more suited to the man staying home, great!</p>
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		<title>By: Meg</title>
		<link>http://financefreelancelife.com/2007/10/22/mrs-micah-future-stay-at-home-mom/#comment-427</link>
		<dc:creator>Meg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Oct 2007 18:09:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://financefreelancelife.com/?p=131#comment-427</guid>
		<description>I just have to point out the other side of the coin here.  Paula says &quot;you&#039;ll never regret it for a minute&quot; if you have no career and stay home for your children.  I disagree.  You might regret it a lot, especially if your husband a) loses his job, b) dies, or c) leaves you.  Then how will you take care of those precious children?

In this day and age, it&#039;s very very risky for women to give up their earning power by leaving (or never starting) any meaningful career.  I know no one thinks it will happen to them, but the divorce rate is well over 50% now.  Plus there are risks of illness, disability, and death of your husband.

You might also regret it when they go off to school (forget college, we&#039;re talking grade school) and you have no meaningful occupation.  Sewing and reading are not nearly as rewarding as they seem--especially when done for decades on end. Your kids only need constant care for a few years--there&#039;s no reason for a woman to refuse to work for the entirity of her life just because she has small children at home for 5 or 6 years.

Plus, it&#039;s a HUGE financial burden on men who are forced to be primary breadwinners in today&#039;s world, supporting 2-5 dependents on one income.  They don&#039;t have the option to choose to sit around and read, sew, and explore their own interests instead of making a living.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just have to point out the other side of the coin here.  Paula says &#8220;you&#8217;ll never regret it for a minute&#8221; if you have no career and stay home for your children.  I disagree.  You might regret it a lot, especially if your husband a) loses his job, b) dies, or c) leaves you.  Then how will you take care of those precious children?</p>
<p>In this day and age, it&#8217;s very very risky for women to give up their earning power by leaving (or never starting) any meaningful career.  I know no one thinks it will happen to them, but the divorce rate is well over 50% now.  Plus there are risks of illness, disability, and death of your husband.</p>
<p>You might also regret it when they go off to school (forget college, we&#8217;re talking grade school) and you have no meaningful occupation.  Sewing and reading are not nearly as rewarding as they seem&#8211;especially when done for decades on end. Your kids only need constant care for a few years&#8211;there&#8217;s no reason for a woman to refuse to work for the entirity of her life just because she has small children at home for 5 or 6 years.</p>
<p>Plus, it&#8217;s a HUGE financial burden on men who are forced to be primary breadwinners in today&#8217;s world, supporting 2-5 dependents on one income.  They don&#8217;t have the option to choose to sit around and read, sew, and explore their own interests instead of making a living.</p>
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